A moment with Malaysian dance icon Ramli Ibrahim

Datuk Ramli Ibrahim, the Malaysian dance icon, was one of the speakers at the recently held TEDxKL, where he delivered a profound treatise on the philosophy that is embodied in Indian classical dance.

Following from that, I managed to sit down with him over a cup of coffee (brewed with the beans from his own coffee bush growing in Sutra House’s backyard) and pick his brains.

Datuk Ramli has the kind of persona that is immediately warm and approachable, yet infused with such an intensity that could be unnerving if he wasn’t such a welcoming presence.

Datuk Ramli opened up and shared his thoughts on various subjects, such as the environment, consumerism, philosophy, history, mysticism, the arts, society, his family, his childhood, his passion, his legacy, and many other things. He has such a breadth and depth of knowledge to share, and not just about the arts. This is a man who has obviously dived deep into the ocean of life.

Here is the gist of my interview with this remarkable man.

1. How and when did you become interested in the arts, and why Indian classical dance?
Datuk Ramli: As a child I was artistically inclined. I had a deeply artistic temperament. I was precocious, I was singing, I was dancing, I was painting. I still paint a little but dance seems to have taken over me completely.

I pay homage to the Indian civilization because it’s a major world civilisation – older than even the Greek civilization – and it’s still living. India has provided a very strong basis for a lot of the Southeast Asian cultures, a lot of the aesthetic theories. And the depth (of Indian dance) is very strong – it’s not just about movement, it connects philosophically also. So it’s a very integrated vision.

The Natya Shastra, which is the oldest treatise on Indian dance compiled between 200 – 500AD, looked at the body as the microcosm of the universe. Which means that the sage who wrote it understood that the human body is an archetype of the universe and you could make a metaphoric correlation.

In the original dance theatre, the shaman is the dance specialist. He has to communicate with the spirit realm, using dance, music and all that. He strengthens the soul – this is origin of theatre.

Serious theatre still has that effect, it is therapeutic to the mind and soul. Dance releases something in us, why do you think people go to discos? It’s something primal in us. Greek tragedies have the concept of “catharsis” and you feel a sense of release from it.

But the Indians conceived of a stronger concept, where both the performer and the audience experience a sense of “Moksha”, the release from the mundane life. You are transported to another life, and not stuck in the “panjara” (Sanskrit for “box”) of your everyday existence.

If you look at the Orang Asli, their concept of life is the one that sustains the forest and the land. We (modern humans) are the ones who are killing ourselves by killing the environment! And the modern idea talks about ownership but the Orang Asli’s concept is that the land belongs to everyone. So the greed is still there – have we really become more civilized?

In the last 200 years we have demolished ourselves and we have exhausted this planet Earth. What is going to happen in another 50, 100 years, tell me? I feel that we have to go back to this wisdom of the old people who have understood this. We have to refer to them and understand their point of view. The modern aggressive and destructive mode is not the answer.

2. You completed your degree in engineering during the 1970s, but transitioned into a career in the arts. What was the thinking behind that decision, was there something that pushed it forward?
Datuk Ramli: I had always been interested in the arts. Even when I was in the Royal Military College (in my teenage years), I performed in many school performances and such. It’s just that the level of professionalism and training was not there. It was amateurish, school-level performances.

But during my time, if you were good academically, you automatically entered the Science stream in school and I was definitely a victim of that!  At RMC (studies) were difficult, but we got distinctions galore for our Senior Cambridge. I was among 16 top students who were selected to receive scholarships to study in Australia.

When I was in Australia, I was able to fully explore (my artistic side) during my time in University. I went to dance classes whenever I could – at least 3 times a week – for ballet, for modern dance. I even had a Malay dance group.

I was also dancing professionally with the Western Australian Ballet Company, among other things. When I completed my engineering degree, I went to Melbourne and Sydney to concentrate on my dance training full time. And that was the best thing I did. I went to the best institution – The Australian Ballet – and concentrated on the training of my body. It was the best investment I made. I was then invited to the Sydney Dance Company.

Me: I’m quite amazed that you could get your engineering degree while still having a professional dance career!

Datuk Ramli: I thought that I needed to “finish the game” so to speak – get my degree. Passing was not a problem. But of course, once I was so focused on my dance, it became, “OK, you want me to pass (the engineering course), I can pass. But I’m not going to be excelling in it so much.”

Once you are really geared like that… already at 7am, I would be on my own in some hall somewhere, doing my ballet exercises before going for breakfast and classes. And that’s what I tell my dancers – if you want something, you really work on it.

When I was in India, this was what I did. If I stayed in Puri and I had to be at Bhubaneswar (62km away) at 8am to meet with the great guru, I have to wake up at 5am and travel 2 hours by bus – if I have to do it, I have to do it! That’s your focus. And on the bus, I would be practicing my dance moves and people would be watching but I didn’t care because it was kind of an obsession. I was very driven. But I still did my thesis on Stress Corrosion and Safety Precautions in Nuclear Reactors.

3. The arts are generally traditionally seen by Malaysian parents as a flippant interest and not something you can “cari makan” doing. Generally, it still is today. How did your parents respond to your decision to pursue a dance career and what would be your advice for aspiring Malaysian artists?
Datuk Ramli: My parents were non-committal about my talents. You know, as a child I had a radio series of my own. Alfonso Soliano used to conduct me on the piano. A van would come to pick me up and send me to the studio.

This is the place where the British Council is, we didn’t have RTM at the time. I was child of only 8, but I had a salary of RM60 a month. That was quite something at the time. So I was singing and I was even Johan Syair Kuala Lumpur. But dance was my destiny. Even at that young age, I was dancing like a little Isadorable!

Me: So what was their reaction when you announced that you were pursuing dance full-time?

Datuk Ramli: They knew. They knew right from the beginning that I was like that and they were very non-committal about my talents. They just let me go with it. I was the youngest and I had a thing about me – I did everything that my parents told me not to do.

If they told me, “Don’t swim Ramli!” I would go swimming. That’s why I think it was destiny that I found my calling, otherwise I would have been destructive. There are people like that, and I would have been one of them.

Me: Do you have any advice for young Malaysians today who are aspiring to a career in the arts?

Datuk Ramli: That’s very difficult to answer. To what extent? In Malaysia, we still have the fallacy that (the rewards for) the arts don’t commensurate with the time put in. And they are afraid because it is uncertain. Especially for male dancers.

I had one talented dancer who was just coming up and he had some good reviews in the papers. But the community around him stopped him, saying that he was becoming too proud and his studies were not good enough. I tried my damnedness for him, even offering to adopt him. But it was too much.

Dance is not just happy hip-hopping around, entertaining yourself. You want to look at the depth of the art. It’s very difficult tell people this when parents are telling their kids, “don’t do it.” There’s talent everywhere but how do you direct the talents towards a more in-depth look at dance or theatre? That’s very difficult.

It’s basically the middle-class attitude. “Study, get a good job, something normal.” But you see that a lot of artists who are successful had some job before and they eventually made the decision to follow their inclination. The Malays would explain this that you have to follow your “angin”, your inherent temperament.  If you ignore this gift, this talent, you will not be happy in life.

On top of that, it would curse you, and that’s why you can become destructive. If you don’t follow what you want to do, then there would always be a problem. It’s what Jung says, you would try to transfer your unfulfilled dreams to your children. That’s sad, because the individual’s potential is never fulfilled. It’s like a flower that never quite bloomed fully. You can always tell that in a soul, as the Malays say – the “angin tak lepas”, you know.

So no, I don’t generally give advice about this. It is a very competitive field and only the best survive. There is a whole big…(set of obstacles to overcome) and only very special people make it. I was very determined, I guess, to follow my destiny and that led me to be successful.

4. You are an outspoken advocate for cultural diversity, and Malaysia seems to have still some way to go in this direction. What was your experience like when you decided to pursue Indian classical dance as your life’s work? Did you face any resistance or barriers and how did you overcome them?
Datuk Ramli: My specialization is in Indian classical dance. I’m an Indian classical dancer, but I’m also a very modern choreographer. I’ve said before that I’m not a traditional guru, I am a very contemporary dancer.

I have very strong modern tendencies. I have one foot firmly in the Eastern part and one in the Western part and there’s no conflict. I love the best of both the West and the East. So you have a very integrated person, both modern and traditional, in me. I think this gives me a depth of perspective on things that I feel, having gone through so much, I can be confident to offer at any table to be challenged.

I was at a talk in India recently and it was interesting how some of the younger scholars were saying that we were, in a way, colonized in the way we look at history by the boundaries created by colonialism.

Long time ago, when the maritime empires of India, China and Southeast Asia were at their height, the demarcation of borders were not so clear. There was no India or Malaysia or Indonesia (in the modern sense), so to speak, and the exchanges went two ways. In a way, we are very much influenced by some of the concepts and philosophies that has come from India. In many ways, we grab on still to these concepts. It would be regressive for me to completely dismiss that.

You know, I did Sanskrit in University and I do a lot of comparative religion studies, and studies of myths. Myths are very important for me, they are the song of the universe. It’s the expression of the collective consciousness.

It is NOT “cerita-cerita dongeng”. In myths, we can actually find the archetypes of the universe. It has nothing to do with historical accuracy and this is where, when Khoo Kay Khim mentioned that Hang Tuah and Jebat and all that were “dongeng” and never happened, it kills the Malays.

Because they already exist in Malay myth, and they (the Malays) refer to it and you have demolished it! It’s not about historical truth, it’s about how you (as a culture) project your ideas about “kewiraan” (heroism) and all that into this figure, who then became larger than life. You cannot destroy that!

Me: Were there any barriers or resistance that you faced when you decided to pursue classical Indian dance? 

Datuk Ramli: My strongest and weakest point was my naivete at the time. Sometimes, it’s like walking through a minefield. If you just try to be too careful or are too fearful, you would definitely step on a mine.

But if you are naïve, wave and say, “Hi, everybody!” and just walk, you probably sail through. I came back (to Malaysia) right in the wave of the fundamentalist revival in the 80s, influenced by the Iranians. By the 90s, the government was banning Mak Yong and things like that. I mentioned that this was a Malay cultural genocide! They’re killing their own culture. To do what – to wear Arabian jubah?

You know, if we don’t have a past, or are in denial of our past, we cannot move forward. We don’t have the identity to build for the future. And also, if you don’t understand and come to terms with our past, you will be condemned to repeat history.

Art makes us more civilized. In art, you can exist in many worlds and you can understand all these things. You celebrate the fact that humanity deals with these issues. And as an artist you celebrate all this because it engages the senses. It makes you talk about it. And through the discussions, the interpretation becomes richer.

5. I would ask you about your legacy, but the Sutra Foundation has already been established as the extension of your vision for developing the Malaysian art scene. How is that going, and what do you foresee in the future for Malaysian art, especially the classical arts, in this age of high-speed activity and instant gratification?
Datuk Ramli: I’m not a prophet, ah! To a certain extent, what you get is what you deserve. If the country gets a lousy arts scene, or represents itself by the kind of work we send overseas, then we deserve what we get. Because the arts don’t lie, it represents exactly what we are.

So what is the future? It depends, it’s so complex now. Malaysia is not just “Malaysia” now, with global connectedness, and people are staring at their screens, swiping. People live virtually, and life is not meant to be lived virtually. But there are also many people who are rejecting this trend.

I had a friend who scolded her dinner guest for whipping out her mobile. I myself have scolded my dinner guest for doing that. You are here as my guest, so interact with me, otherwise you can leave!

Our children today are out of touch with nature. When I was young, I was very close to nature. I had a whole menagerie of animals, cats, fish, birds, rabbits.

And I would look at all these animals, and flowers and plants – how they moved and grew. I would follow all the major longkangs around Imbi Road, Pasar Road looking for fish with my band of friends. These are the greatest teachers of life and precursors to choreography, I think, because you are minutely aware of movements.

You know, I have outreach programmes outside of KL, in Kuala Selangor and all that. But I find that the intake in KL is very poor now. And when I do get the children, I find the kids are absolutely turned in. And their legs cannot point because they are not using them enough.

Even their toes cannot bend, they are stiff. They spend their time watching television. And I’m not the only one commenting about this, other teachers too. Our children are not spending enough time in outdoor activities and this has robbed them of their physical strength.

We’re also living in precarious times, we don’t know what’s going to happen next. The weather is changing, there is increasing depression…

Me: You set up the Sutra Foundation to develop your vision for the arts…

The Sutra Foundation is intended to give focus to developing the arts, and we are already doing this. We have about 200 students and some of them are very good. The legacy of what we have done is important, and we are able to sustain the place and make it go a bit further even when I am not around.

Me: Where do you see your legacy going in the future with the Sutra Foundation?

There is the Centre here, but when I’m dead, I don’t think it matters, does it? Someone asked me, how would you like to be remembered? I said, It’s not important how I’m remembered when I’m dead. I’m dead already, ma!

To know more about Datuk Ramli Ibrahim, Sutra Dance Theatre or the Sutra Foundation, visit www.sutrafoundation.org.my



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